National leaders debate on energy, verbatim

 

MONTREAL – The April 17 English language debate between four national party leaders got deep into energy policy, with energy and climate change being given a segment for debate. Bloc Québécois Leader Yves-François Blanchet, NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh, Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre and Liberal Leader Mark Carney took part in the second of two back-to-back debates in Montreal.

The Green Party was excluded from the debates just prior to the first debate taking place on April 16.

Stave Paikin of TVO was the host of the English debate.

This is the verbatim transcript of the energy portion of the debate. Of note, Carney clearly makes an error in referring to the federally-owned Trans Mountain Pipeline as the Keystone Pipeline. While generally a civil debate,  there are several instances of cross talk and talking over each other. In most cases, it was Singh who was interjecting.  

Steve Paikin

I know how much you all enjoy talking about pipelines, so here we go. Mr. Singh, to you first, should Canada build new pipelines to get our oil and gas to market?

Jagmeet Singh

Well, it’s not an approach I favor with public money. There’s not any projects that are on the table, so it’s not a specific project to look at. I favor, when it comes to the environment, building an east-west energy grid that connects low cost energy and allows for families to reduce their electricity costs.

But let’s put this all in context. We’re talking about what our energy solutions are in the context of a climate crisis. And we’re not just talking about a climate crisis in the far future. We’re living it right now. I remember I met a mom a couple years ago, before I had kids, who told me she was worried about taking her kids out on some days because of the forest fires in BC, it meant that it was unsafe for kids to go outdoors. Fast forward to when I became a parent just a couple years after that, and I literally worry about the same thing. The forest fires we saw a couple years ago meant that many places that didn’t see this before saw days where there was such smoke in the air that it was dangerous for kids. We see extreme weather, forest fires, heat domes, floods, impact. Yes, we’ve got to do everything we can.

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Steve Paikin

Thanks Mr. Singh, that’s time. Mr. Poilievre, where does fighting climate change land on your list of priorities when it comes to expanding energy opportunities in this country?

Pierre Poilievre

It lands within our priorities of bringing home jobs while bringing down emissions around the world. Look, the reality is that if we push production out of our country to more polluting countries, it actually makes the problem worse. But that has been exactly the liberal approach. With the anti-development law C-69, blocking of 15 LNG export plants over the last 10 years, we have seen, more of those jobs go abroad. I want to bring them home. My plan will be to approve, for example, natural gas liquefaction and export. If we sent our gas to India, for example, to displace half of their demand for electricity, we could reduce emissions by 2.5 billion tons, which is three times the total emissions of Canada. That’s the way we bring emissions down and jobs up. It’s common sense, and now it’s time to bring it home.

Steve Paikin

Thank you. Mr. Poilievre, the next question is for Mr. Carney, how would your government fast track pipelines and mining projects, while also following the Supreme Court decision that requires consent of indigenous communities?

Mark Carney

Well, I think the first thing, and this goes back a bit to where we started, which is recognizing that we are in a crisis. We need to act with maximum force, and having a process and a consultation, but a consultation with a purpose, which is to identify those projects, those investments of national interest, that are really going to move the dial in terms of growth, jobs, energy security, while being consistent with long term competitiveness, which necessarily means lower carbon.

And so part of that process is ensuring that First Nations, Indigenous peoples are there from the start. It also includes their ability to participate fully in those projects, and that’s why, and I’ll I know you, I can tell it. You’ve got to tell on when I’ve gone on too long. So I’ll finish up, which is that’s why we’re doubling, our proposal is to double the Indigenous Loan Guarantee Program to ten billion what does that actually mean? It means an ability for them to invest equity in those partners.

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Steve Paikin 

My tell is my clock and my clock is at zero. So that’s how it goes. Mr. Blanchette, you still oppose pipeline construction in Quebec, even though a majority of Quebecers now apparently say they support it.

Yves-François Blanchet 

We will know about that when we have held the debate about that which has not begun yet. We are just begining it. First, we are hearing very creative numbers, and we are being fed nonsense, and we will be back to it in a few minutes. But energy trade cars is from south to north, or north to south, and it’s true in Quebec also. In a little more than three years, Donald Trump won’t be enough is and there will be not one more pipeline having been built, once we get there. So let’s be serious, responsible, and we will be back with the numbers.  We don’t want to pay in Quebec for such monstrosities, which will provide us with nothing.

Steve Paikin  

We now move to open debate, and you all will get a chance, or have had a chance, to get the first shot at this. Mr. Blanchet, it is your turn to get the first shot. Canada has a substantial supply of critical minerals which are in high demand. Are you in favor of allowing these minerals to be mined?

Yves-François Blanchet

Of course, it has to be done properly. Quebec as probably the most important clean phosphate reserves in North America, in Saguenay-Lac St. Jean. It is very important. It has to be exploited. This is the best way to use Saugenay as an infrastructure that we need. We have the jump. Everybody needs the jump. Transportation has to be taken from oil to clean energy. This is what we want to be working on. It is part of the specificities of, specifics of Quebec economy. So we are in favor of that. But we don’t want to pay for the 30 billions of dollars which have been spent on oil and gas by the Liberals last year. It’s seven billions of dollars from Quebec. We don’t want to pay for the 40 billions of dollars which have been spent by the Liberals on Trans Mountain, it’s nine billions of dollars from Quebec. Those are 16 billions of dollars, of which not $1 has been spent in Quebec to develop a lot more power and wealth for Quebecers with our own money.

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Steve Paikin  

We need to let the leader of the Liberals respond.

Mark Carney  

Well, actually, I was going to pick up on the enormous opportunity that exists in Quebec, exists in Ontario, exists in the north of Canada, really exists across this great nation in terms of critical metals and minerals. We are one of, have one of the biggest resources in this country. And this is, it’s not just enormous economic opportunity, it is a strategic opportunity for Canada. So we have to make a decision, not just to develop it, but how do we develop it, and who are our partners for it? Do we become more dependent on the United States? Which is what they want? By the way, President Trump, this week said he might put a tax on critical metals and minerals, just showing again. And so the discussions …

Yves-François Blanchet

Yeah but Trump wants to negotiate …

Steve Paikin 

Let him finish.

Mark Carney 

So the opportunity includes in Europe and includes in Asia as our partners. Last point, in order to get it done, in order to get it done, we’ll put in place a first and last mile fund so these projects are connected to road and rail, so they can go quickly to market. And we will have all of the other fast tracking measures in place that I talked about earlier, in terms of capital, timing, approvals, so that we can move quickly. We can be stronger at home, better ways.

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Steve Paikin 

Mr Singh has the floor.

Jagmeet Singh  

We should absolutely to give advantage the fact that we’ve got incredible amounts of critical minerals in our country, and the way we do that is with any energy project or any project with its nature, make sure it’s got the local community buy in. It creates good jobs and communities. Make sure we are meeting all our environmental needs, and we work with indigenous partnership. And so I absolutely agree with that. I want to build on something Mr. Blanchet mentioned about the investments that this country has made. What I found very troubling is that the past number of years, the Liberal government record is one where we have spent the most subsidies compared to any other country in the G7 on subsidizing oil and gas. These are highly profitable companies.

Yves-François Blanchet  

You voted for it.

Jagmeet Singh  

You think that’s the wrong thing to do.

Jagmeet Singh 

No, you voted for it.

Jagmeet Singh

We fought against it again and again. The Liberals have continued to do it. So my question really, to Mr. Carney is, will you commit to ending oil and gas subsidies? We should be using that to invest in people, not giving it to highly profitable oil and gas companies.

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Steve Paikin  

I promised Mr. Poilievre, next. We’ll come back and get that question.

Pierre Poilievre  

Well, Mr. Carney, you point out that Donald Trump has a wrong-headed idea of putting a tax on our mines and our industry, and that is wrong. But so do you. You want to apply a massive industrial carbon tax on Canadian mines, Canadian steel mills, Canadian aluminum plants, Canadian oil and gas plant, and your idea is to double the tax that Trump is applying by hitting them a second time. This will do nothing for the environment. It will actually ship our job south of the border.

Jagmeet Singh 

Mr.  Poilievre’s plan is to give President Trump what he wants. Not a good plan.

Pierre Poilievre  

My plan is to bring that production home here to Canada.

Pierre Poilievre  

For example, I will give a tax credit to low emitting Canadian industry, like Quebec’s aluminum, for example, or British Columbia’s natural gas, so that we not only bring home the production, but we do it below global average levels of emissions, we actually help the environment while bringing home their jobs for our people at the same time that is, that is a sensible, pragmatic approach that puts us in charge of our economic destiny, so we can stand up to the Americans from a position of strength for a change.

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Steve Paikin  

Mr. Carney, I want to give you a chance to speak to Mr. Singh’s criticism about oil and gas subsidies and Mr. Poilievre’s criticism about the industrial carbon tax.

Mark Carney  

Okay, I’m gonna make three points. I’ll make four, if you want me to respond to that, but I wanna make three. The first is that we answered, I answered this question last night, but I think the puck had already dropped in the Canadiens game, so not everyone heard it. Yes. End to oil and gas subsidies. Secondly, secondly, I would have done it independently. Secondly, recognizing that the biggest component of that was the cost of building Keystone. Keystone, which is the pipeline, which has helped to increase oil and gas export, or oil exports, rather, by 15% in this country. That is an asset of the people of Canada, we own it. And the question where to do it so it’s not a subsidy that has disappeared, it is actually an asset in Canada. The third point, though, in terms of where the oil and gas industry, particularly the oil industry, needs, wants to and needs to go, which is to become low carbon. Low carbon, in production and transportation of oil. One of the big projects we need to move forward with is carbon capture and storage, the Pathways Project, so that we have oil and gas that is competitive, not just today, but 10 years from now and 20 years from now, as the world uses less, we want to have more market share, we need to my government. My government will move that.

Jagmeet Singh 

But my definition of subsidy isn’t when we buy a pipeline. I’m talking about subsidies they go to oil and gas companies. Well, dependent, separate from the country, oil and gas companies. That’s what I’m talking about.

Mark Carney 

The figure you quoted last night, included the cost of the pipeline.

Jagmeet Singh

Billions of dollars we’re spending. We got to stop spending.

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Steve Paikin 

Sorry, can we? Can we get you to address his point on industrial carbon?

Pierre Poilievre

How much will the industrial carbon tax add to the price of a car?

Mark Carney 

So the first thing I want to say is, we have, I’m going to address the broader point. Well, broader point is the entire absence of a climate plan from Mr. Poilievre, which, by the way, is going to put our industry and our country at a disadvantage as we’re looking for new trading partners. Guess what? Most people want to deepen our partnership in Europe, in Asia. Those countries care about whether or not you’ve made progress. Second thing is, we’re designing a program so that the big polluters pay Canadians at home for making responsible climate choices, for retrofitting their home, getting their emissions down or improving otherwise. And that is smart climate policy. It’s better for the big polluters and it’s better for Canadians.

Pierre Poilievre 

Mr. Carney didn’t answer my question. I asked, how much would the industrial carbon tax on Canadian steel add to the price of a car? He won’t answer because he knows that it will be very expensive, because there’s lots of steel in cars. Now. Well, Mr. Carney has temporarily…

Steve Paikin 

Pierre Poilievre.

Jagmeet Singh 

But do you know the answer?

Pierre Poilievre

… hidden the in the carbon tax, 1000s of dollars.

Mark Carney

I actually do know the answer to that question

Pierre Poilievre

When you add taxes to steel, you raise the price of everything that uses steel when you add everything taxes, when you add …

Jagmeet Singh

It’s a strawman argument when you say you know the price …

Pierre Poilievre

… when you add, when you add carbon tax on to the price of, for example, fertilizer, you increase the price of food. So while Mr. Carney has temporarily hidden the Liberal carbon tax at the pumps while keeping the tax fully in law and planning to raise it after the election, he’s also going after a tax on our industry that will ultimately be passed on to you after a lost Liberal decade of rising costs, we cannot afford a fourth Liberal term. We need a new government that will fully axe the carbon tax, increase the jobs that we have here in Canada, and bring down your cost of living.

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Steve Paikin 

We’ve got just little over three minutes left in this segment. So Mr. Singh, I want to ask you, do you think climate change is still a priority from Canadians? You’re out there, what are you hearing?

Jagmeet Singh

Absolutely! You speak to any any young person, and they think we’re seeing climate crisis in front of us happening right now. Speak to seniors who say, you know, we used to be able to live in our homes without air conditioning, and now we’re seeing heat crises in communities that never had worries about extreme weather. We’re seeing flooding. We’re seeing forest fires like never before. We are living in a climate crisis, so Canadians are absolutely worried about it. As soon as you come into a summer, we start seeing those forest fires again. It’s top of mind for Canadians because they’re living it. They’re seeing it. And I want those Canadians to know Mr. Carney is not going to end those fossil fuel subsidies, unless I’m there to fight back. Mr. Poilievre wants to let big polluters pollute, as much as much as they want; poison our beautiful land, our water …

Pierre Poilievre

That’s not true.

Jagmeet Singh

… our air. He wants to let them dump into our oceans. I’m going to fight back and defend our environment.

Steve Paikin 

Mr. Blanchet on the issue of whether or not people still care about climate change?

Yves-François Blanchet

I think people should be kept very informed about climate change, because we are in a very strange denial situation about climate change, which still exists and is very expensive, and I’m sorry to crush your party guys, but you are telling fairy tales. Clean oil and gas is a fairy tale. Large scale carbon sequestration, sorry, I’m French, is a fairy tale. It does not exist. If Alberta wanted to exploit oil and gas and it were not a matter of pollution, I wouldn’t mind at all. That’s their business. Our own powerhouse, in terms of energy in Quebec, is clean energy. We are the best place in the world to achieve that, our market is the northeastern part, Democrat part of United States. We want to keep our money to create wealth in Quebec for Quebecers. It’s different, because we can afford this.

Steve Paikin 

Mr. Poilievre, I will get to you because I said I would, but you’ve taken a couple of hits here, and I want to give you a chance to respond to some of the things that people on this side of the stage have said.

Pierre Poilievre

Thank you. Well, first of all, we do support protecting the environment, banning – we want to ban the dumping of raw sewage into our waters. We want to hold large corporations to high environmental standards to protect our water and air. But we cannot do that by raising taxes and sending jobs overseas, as Mr. Carney is proposing to do. That has been the approach of the last 10 years of the Liberal government. What the biggest companies that may develop our resources say is that we need to repeal the liberal anti-development law, C-69 a law Mr. Carney wants to keep in place. They say we need to repeal the industrial carbon tax and get rid of the liberal energy cap. We need six months approval in order to get our, to take back energy security and energy so …

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  0046 City of Estevan This is Estevan Teaser
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  0087 Lori Carr Coal Expansion
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  0051 JML Hiring Pumpjack assembly
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  0049 Scotsburn Dental soft guitar
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  0041 DEEP Since 2018 now we are going to build
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Steve Paikin 

Last word to Mr. Carney.

Mark Carney

Thank you very much. You know, I was born in Fort Smith in the Northwest Territories, just north of what the oil sands became when I was born and when I was growing up in Edmonton. Early days, it was a fairy tale, quote, unquote. But you know what happened? Canadian ingenuity, Canadian engineers, Canadian governments, both the federal government and the Alberta government, got together and created, converted this …

Yves-François Blanchet 

The worst pollution in the world!

Mark Carney

May I finish? May I finish? May I finish? Ten, more seconds, please.

Steve Paikin 

Let him finish this point.

Mark Carney

That’s the opportunity we have. That’s the opportunity we have in carbon capture. That’s the opportunity we have in small modular reactors. That’s the opportunity we have in hydrogen beyond. This country can be a clean energy superpower my government will help deliver.

Steve Paikin 

And that is time for the segment, gentlemen.

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  0046 City of Estevan This is Estevan Teaser
• 0088 WBPC_2025_30SEC_PROMO
  0088 WBPC_2025_30SEC_PROMO
• 0087 Lori Carr Coal Expansion
  0087 Lori Carr Coal Expansion
• 0086 Sask Gov Oil and Gas Incentive Programs
  0086 Sask Gov Oil and Gas Incentive Programs
• 0085 Turnbull snow removal call office
  0085 Turnbull snow removal call office
• 0084 EMP Metals Pipeline Online
  0084 EMP Metals Pipeline Online
• 0077 Caprice Resources Stand Up For Free Speech
  0077 Caprice Resources Stand Up For Free Speech
• 0076 Latus only
  0076 Latus only
• 0061 SIMSA 2024 For Sask Buy Sask
  0061 SIMSA 2024 For Sask Buy Sask
• 0055 Smart Power Be Smart with your Power office
  0055 Smart Power Be Smart with your Power office
• 0051 JML Hiring Pumpjack assembly
  0051 JML Hiring Pumpjack assembly
• 0049 Scotsburn Dental soft guitar
  0049 Scotsburn Dental soft guitar
• 0041 DEEP Since 2018 now we are going to build
  0041 DEEP Since 2018 now we are going to build
• 0032 IWS Summer hiring rock trailer music
• 0022 Grimes winter hiring
• 0021 OSY Rentals S8 Promo
• 0018 IWS Hiring Royal Summer
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Pipeline Online provides the in-depth coverage on energy issues in this province that no other media comes close to. It does NOT receive federal journalism subsidies, and it will NOT allow the federal government to limit its freedom of speech. With recent action from Facebook to block news links, it’s important to follow Pipeline Online in other manners. The easiest is to check each morning at PipelineOnline.ca, with the top story posted at 7 a.m. Monday to Friday, and additional coverage throughout the day and weekend. But you can also follow on LinkedIn and Twitter. You can follow editor Brian Zinchuk online at LinkedIn as well (you’ll see more stories that way). You can subscribe to a weekly newsletter. You can subscribe to the Pipeline Online Podcast on Apple Podcasts here. And if you wish to advertise and support this journalism, call 306-461-5599.