CO2 is not a pollutant; we’re going to burn coal until we run out of coal: Sask United Leader Jon Hromek

 

WEYBURN – It’s not often an oil company CEO sells his company to run for provincial politics, becoming the leader of an upstart party in the process. But that’s exactly what Jon Hromek has done.

With the sale of junior oil producer Adonai Resources II in recent months, Hromek has leapt into politics full-time with the Saskatchewan United Party. He was initially the deputy leader, but founding leader Nadine Wilson, MLA for Saskatchewan Rivers, stepped down, and Hromek has assumed the leadership mantle.

Hromek came to Weyburn on July 25 in one of his first town halls as leader. About 35 people came to hear him speak at McKenna Hall.

It was an event not unlike the summer of 1997, when four Progressive Conservative and four Liberal MLAs founded the Saskatchewan Party. That winter, the leadership race took place, meeting in church halls just like the one in Weyburn. And back in early 1998, Pipeline Online editor Brian Zinchuk covered the Saskatchewan Party leadership race when it came to Rosetown.

The parallels to the formation of the Saskatchewan Party and the Saskatchewan United Party are in some ways striking, as both have their roots in a feeling a conservative voice was not being heard. The difference here is the Sask United feel the Saskatchewan Party has lost its way, whereas the Saskatchewan Party had similar feelings about both the Progressive Conservatives and Liberals.

Hromek personally ran in a bi-election last August in Lumsden-Morse, motivated in large part by dramatically graphic sexually explicit teaching materials that were being used in the school by Planned Parenthood. That caused a firestorm in and of itself, and Hromek, a political newbie, took 22.7 per cent of the vote despite a late entry into the contest. While the Saskatchewan Party easily carried the seat, it was also a wake up call for the governing party, which soon called the Legislature back into session early that fall to deal with parental rights policy when it came to gender issues.

Hromek spoke in Weyburn for about 10 minutes before fielding an animated discussion period for another 80 minutes without a break. He spoke about a variety of issues, especially education and health care, but also energy. Pipeline Online posed several questions during the discussion as well as a brief one-on-one discussion at the end. And as this publication focuses on energy, that’s where this story will focus as well.

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CEO as politician

Asking Hromek why an oil CEO, an engineer, is running for politics and is the leader of a party, Hromek said, “While I think we need change, and I was not willing to sit on the sidelines and wait for someone else to get involved. So I decided, you know what, I’m going to throw my hat in the ring. And I’m going to bring the same gusto and the same energy and the same discipline that I put into running an oil company into, into being the leader of this party, and going forward.”

With the largest story in Canada being the whole energy transition, as someone who has worked in energy and is an engineer, does Hromek think that brings a different perspective?

Hromek replied, “One hundred per cent, yeah, absolutely.

“Because I know what I know. And I know what I don’t know. But what I know is that this transition, and this of what’s been pushed for the last 10, 15 years in Canada, it doesn’t make sense, and it’s going to lead to a disaster. And that’s going to hurt every citizen in Canada.

 

“And so, it’s just about having the conversations and, and putting the steps in place in order to mitigate this and be able to ensure that Saskatchewan can be all it can be. Because at the end of the day, you know what? The people of Saskatchewan deserve this.”

As someone who has run businesses, as a chief executive, does he think we need more people who actually know the bottom line and how to run a business in government?

Hromek said, “Absolutely, we do. Because at the end of the day, when you’re running government, it’s management. And you need people that have experience in management in order to make tough decisions, because you just can’t take anyone and throw them in there and expect good decisions to happen. When you just take anyone, you throw them in there, what tends to happen is your middle management or your upper level bureaucrats will then make all the decisions. And that’s not good, because you’re elected as an elected official to be able to make tough calls and be able to manage effectively and efficiently. And it’s hard to get good professionals in, because especially in when they’re in their 40s and 50s, because they’re right in the prime of their earning years. But at the end of the day, a sacrifice needs to be made and they need to jump in and bring their skill set and that will benefit the entire province of Saskatchewan.”

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Harnessing resources

In his speech, Hromek said, “We must uphold the principles that we, as a society, are judged by how we treat our most vulnerable, and that starts with our families. Our policies and our priorities must be centered around bringing affordable and better quality of life to every family in Saskatchewan. I firmly believe that. We must ensure that our decisions and our investments, our resources are directed towards supporting and empowering our families to thrive and succeed. That’s what’s driven me into politics.”

A bit later on he said, “With respect to our resources, we must harness our resources to benefit our families and our citizens. We recognize that it is the responsibility of the government to ensure that the wealth of Saskatchewan resources are not exploited by big business, but rather benefits Saskatchewan families and communities. First, we are committed to a vision where the prosperity and well being of Saskatchewan families is first, the wealth generated from our resources should be reinvested into our communities, our families and our future. By promoting responsible resource development, proper and fair royalties and equitable distribution of revenues, we can ensure that the benefits of our natural resource wealth reach every corner of our province.”

CO2 is not a pollutant

In the discussion portion, Pipeline Online asked Hromek to flesh out the party’s energy policies, asking, “When it comes to the federal government who says we’re going to have these Clean Electricity Regulations, which means that by 2035, we can’t produce any power from coal or natural gas, unless we have a very expensive carbon capture which is not as efficient as people think it is. Or we can only run it for 450 hours a year, right until January 19. On any given day, natural gas and coal produces 88% of our power, so what would you do? And that’s why they’re forcing us to build wind and solar. So, what is your policy regarding the federal government forcing Clean Electricity Regulations, and its whole net-zero thing?”

 

Hromek responded, “Well, I’m a I’m an engineer by trade, a petroleum engineer by trade, and net-zero is something that only exists in an Excel spreadsheet exercise. It violates the first law of thermodynamics.

“The crux of net-zero to the federal government was to create an understanding and a narrative that carbon dioxide is a pollutant. They had to change the definition of carbon dioxide to be in a pollutant.

“We know in Saskatchewan, because we’re surrounded by fields as far as you can see that CO2 is not a pollutant. CO2 is the gas of life. It’s plant food.

“Now, so what we would do to address net-zero, because under no circumstance would we ever go along with net-zero. We can’t go along with net-zero. Net-zero will kill agriculture, will kill energy and the resource sector in this province. And basically without carbon dioxide, you die. That’s basically how it works, right?

“So we know, and maybe for a bit of context, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere right now is just over 400 parts per million. The concentration of CO2 that is ideal for plant growth is between 1200 and 1400 parts per million. It’s three times higher.

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“So, we would challenge the federal government on its definition of CO2, because the crux of all the net-zero regulations, the crux of clean electricity is all on the premise that CO2 is a pollutant. And it’s not.”

He continued, “We already have some case law on this, because remember, when our fantastic federal energy, or environmental activist, I mean, minister, was going after plastic. Remember how he changed the definition of what plastic is? He used the classification to call it toxic. That got pushed all the way to the Supreme Court, and it lost. And the reason is, is because something can’t be toxic, but yet good for you. And you can utilize it every day, all the time that got thrown out.

 

“So that’s what we would do, because net-zero is not going to happen for Saskatchewan. It can’t. Long-term, it just can’t happen. But we’re going to attack it at the crux, and the crux of it is to is to attack it on CO2, and that not being classified as a pollutant.

“So that’s the way. Even when the Sask Party had taken the government to court, I believe it was 2017, 2016, somewhere in that when they took it to court, they were arguing over who has jurisdiction over air pollution. That case was doomed to fail. Because if it’s classified as a pollutant, if it’s in the air, it’s going to cross jurisdictional boundaries, provincial boundaries, which automatically makes it federal jurisdiction. We need to fight from our hill. Our hill is the fact that CO2 is not a pollutant, and fight from that hill.”

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Raking in CO2 dollars

Hromek took issue with one of the greenhouse gas emissions programs, which the Saskatchewan government is now benefiting from financially. He said, “We do have a provincial program in Saskatchewan that was designed to meet federal equivalency, it’s called the Output Based Performance Standard, OBPS. And, that standard goes across to the larger emitters. Myself and my company were one, for flaring in southeast Saskatchewan, and the government of Saskatchewan collected … just under $500 million dollars from that this this year.

“So, while premier Moe is out fighting over the withholding natural gas monies, which was about $25 million, … His government has collected $500 million dollars, and that’s sitting in their coffers.

“So, when I say we’re going to cut the gas tax, guess which money we’re going to use? We’re going to use the money that came in through the OBPS program. And we’re going to give it right back to our citizens. Because if you want to go after Trudeau, that’s how you do it.”

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We’re going to burn coal until we run out of coal

Asked about windmills and solar panels, he said, “The reason that they were going that way was because they were trying to appease the Feds and expand out the windmills and solar panels.

He noted, “People ask me all the time, ‘Jon, how long do you want to burn coal for?’

“I say, I always say, ‘We’re going to burn coal until we run out of coal.’”

“That’s what we have. That’s what we’ve been given. And that’s what we’re going to do. And it’s efficient. And it’s good.

“But if you take a coal plant and retrofit it to natural gas combined cycle, it, the cost is about  $900,000 per megawatt. Solar is about $2.7 million per megawatt. But it only runs in Saskatchewan at 18.8 per cent of the time of its actual capacity that you build. So that works out to about $14 million a megawatt is what you’re spending the money on. Wind, 1.1, but the nameplate capacity is about 38 per cent. So that’s equivalent to about $3 million is how much you’re spending per megawatt. To do that. It’s just not efficient, it just doesn’t make sense.

 

“And the issue with wind and solar is once you have it on a grid, it makes your grid unstable. Electricity flows down a copper line, like water flows down the pipe, meaning it can’t flow in two directions at the same time. So the more renewables or the more intermittent sources of energy you have on your grid, the harder it is, for your grid operator, in this case, SaskPower, to be able to manage that grid without having blackouts or having your power failures in order to offload. Because once electricity is generated, it has to flow.

“That’s actually what was taking place in Alberta, when Alberta went and they had all those blackouts, when it was very dangerous, when it was minus 38 or something like that. The main reason why their grid was having so many issues is because they massively expanded wind and solar onto that grid. And that grid has now become so unstable.

“It’s sad, because Alberta used to have an awesome power grid based on coal and natural gas. And now, I mean, it was just last week, they were having grid alerts again, it’s become so unstable, that it just can’t meet the needs of its citizens. We don’t want to go there. And I’m just talking from an economic perspective, as well as the perspective of providing a service. We don’t want to go there.

“And I’m just talking from an economic perspective, as well as the perspective of providing a service. We don’t want to go there.”

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Yes to nuclear power, but questions SMRs

Asked about nuclear power, Hromek said, “Saskatchewan produces the highest grade of uranium in the world, right? So we’re all for nuclear power.”

However, he’s not so sure about small modular reactors, saying, “Basically, there’s really only two that are running. And it’s more from a research perspective. There’s one in Russia and one in China that’s running right now. This is a very long-term type of technology. Number one, the time to build it would be about 10 years. Number two, it’s under the jurisdiction of the feds, by the way, that is federal jurisdiction. When you’re talking anything nuclear, that is federal jurisdiction. So there’s a massive permitting process.

“But what we’re seeing in the United States, they’ve been looking at projects. So, they’ve had about three main projects that they’ve that they’ve looked at. And here’s the cost of it. Right now, the NuScale project, which was basically just scrapped, and it was scrapped in pre feasibility. They were spending $30 million per megawatt. Remember, the number I told you about natural gas, retrofitting coal, that was $900,000 per megawatt. These guys are at 30 million per megawatt.

“X-energy in the United States, they’re at about $25 million per megawatt. But again, they’re still in the feasibility stage. They’re not even into construction.

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“The GE-Hitachi in the US, this is the one that SaskPower is basing its thoughts on, or its engineering on. They’re right now at $17 million per megawatt, but they’re only three years into the project and haven’t done anything yet.

“So as these projects are expanding out, and they’re getting further and further into the phase, those costs are just skyrocketing. Because the GE-Hitachi plant, originally in in its scoping, it started at $4 million per megawatt. And it’s already at $17 million after three years.

“So we’re I’m very pro nuclear, because we have Cameco. That Cigar Lake mine has the best grade or of uranium in the world. So we’re for that. But small modular reactors, oh, man, like I’m thinking 25 to 30 years out. I would not bet the farm, I wouldn’t shut down the coal plants for it. Let’s just put it that way. That’s, that’s, that’s what I’m thinking.

“I think what would be better for us and Saskatchewan to do is to focus on enriching uranium, because that’s where the real money is in the uranium. It’s enriching it. So rather than just taking the ore unrefined here and shipping it to the US, or shipping it to Russia to enrich, why don’t we enrich it here, ourselves, and then ship it because the main market for uranium is Japan.

“We could enrich it here ourselves, we could ship it to Japan.”

As for the Canadian decided CANDU reactors, which use natural uranium, Hromek said, “The CANDU technology doesn’t work for Saskatchewan, the traditional technology. And here’s the reason why. It is designed for a huge population center that is very dense. So why CANDU works, like Bruce Power, is because you got Mississauga, you got Toronto, you’ve got like massive population centers. Saskatchewan, it’s too spread out.”

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Vote splitting

Hromek was asked about the possibility of splitting the right wing vote, allowing the New Democratic Party to form government. This happened in Alberta in 2015, when the Wild Rose and Conservative Parties split the vote and the NDP under Rachel Notley formed government.

Hromek replied, “I’m glad you brought up Alberta specifically. Okay, because what a lot of people forget was, well, historically, for the last nine elections, there has been another right wing party in Alberta that’s run in all the seats. So there’s been for the last nine elections. So that’s number one.

“Number two, the Wild Rose was kinda considered the Reformers of the Conservative Party? Okay. So and guess who their leader was at that time? It was Daniel Smith. So we all remember that the election was May of 2015.

“But what happened in December of 2014? I’ll tell you. In December of 2014, Jim Prentice came back. Alison Redford stepped down. Jim Prentice became the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Alberta. Danielle Smith crossed the floor took I think, eight of her MLAs with her and basically signed an amalgamation with Jim Prentice.

“That led to a total disillusionment within the right and the center of Alberta. Rachel Notley got in.

“The main reason Rachel Notley got in by far and away is because no one showed up to vote. That’s what happened. That’s why our target in urban Saskatchewan in the cities is the NDP. We’re going right after the NDP, and our target in the rural is the Sask Party and we’re going after the rural. So we’re going to win seats in Regina and in Saskatoon and we’re going to flee win seats, of course in rural Saskatchewan. But every seat we win in urban Saskatchewan is because we’re going after the NDP. It’s not the Sask Party that’s going to stop the NDP from winning those seats. It’s going to be us that stops them from winning those seats.”

 

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